For those of us

[KATE KILLS]

from a christian country with nagging doubts that mongering is somehow `sinful` the following piece from the stickman site may ease your troubled sleep.


""Actually, it still isn’t certain who was caught outside Nana Plaza, me or them.



It was late and I had used up a fair amount of my time in wasteful activity down in Soi Cowboy before I came to my senses and returned to Nana. I went into Rainbow 1 and had another beer I didn’t need and then left the place. For some reason I thought I might check the parking lot and so strode out to the entrance of the plaza to mingle briefly with the coming and goings of the pleasure dome. All I noticed was a group of young people with clipboards and I turned to go back with Erotica bar on my mind. But something made me pause, and I walked casually in the direction of the clipboards.



“Excuse me sir, but I wonder if you would mind participating in an anonymous survey we are taking,’ said a fresh faced young man who had evangelical Christian stamped all over his solicitous manners. It was wicked, I know, but I had caught the unsuspecting fly just as I had intended. Not that all the deceit was of my making. This group wasn’t about to advertise its real intentions either.



I was asked about my nationality, an innocuous question, but when I said I was a dual national, that got the reply, “wow, so cool.”



“Have you ever been to the bars over there,” he said, indicating the neon of the stately pleasure dome.



“Sure,” I replied. And when he wanted to know how often I went there, I told him seven days a week. “This is my neighborhood. I live just down the street.”



“How do you feel about exploiting the women who work there?” asked Mr. Freshface.



“Well, that never happens. They exploit me for money, but I allow them to do it willingly and bear no grudge towards them for it.”



“They exploit you? Those girls work there because of poverty, try to help their families and you are exploiting their poverty.”



“Not me. The majority of people who exploit the poor in this country are wealthy businessmen, middle men and corporations who allow unskilled laborers to compete with one another to drive down wages and thus, increase profits. I allow these women to charge me money as they exploit my masculine nature for sexual release. I want to make love to these women for free but they won’t have it. So, I pay up and forget about it.”



“Don’t you agree that these young women come to work like this because they are poor?”



“Well, that may be the case for the women who work here but they could get jobs in factories out in Samut Prakan. They come here because it pays better. I mean, they aren’t doing this to stave off starvation. They can make more money than a bank manager here and, if the truth be told, they lose a lot of their money gambling, giving it to friends and boyfriends, and so on.”



“But you have money and because of that you can get these girls to do anything you want.”



“I’m sorry, but you don’t really seem to have enough experience with women to understand the problem you are trying to solve. Firstly, the women here decide everything that goes on between men and women. Surely you know that. This isn’t like shopping for shoes. If they don’t like you they won’t go with you. They set the price that I have to pay. They tell me what they will and will not do. I am completely helpless, as all men are, when begging for sexual co-operation from women. I mean, when did men not pay for women?”



"Yeah, actually, I understand what you're saying."



“You know,’ a colleague joined in, trying to deflect the onslaught of arrows, “I used to have a problem with masturbation and pornography before I gave my life over to the Lord. It was like an addiction, but now I am cured.”



“You make a man’s nature seem like it is a disease that needs curing when women are involved. I was taught, and I studied theology to the second year of university, that man was made in the image and likeness of God. Now, for one thing, masturbation is not cited in the Bible as a sin. For another, either man’s nature is natural or it is perverse, but if it is perverse, what does that say about God?”



“So, like you just come down here to get off. Do you believe them when they say they love you? Don’t you want real love?”



"Love? There are all kinds of love. Parental love, love for children, love for a good friend. What sort of love are you talking about? Can you define love? Your view that I come down here just to get off betrays a teenager's understanding of sex and touch between a man and a woman. The men who come here are largely guilty of only one thing and it is loneliness. No one has any compassion for these men. We and they don’t talk of love here, or if they do it is the women who will benefit from it.”



“You come because you are lonely.”



“Actually, no. I am not lonely. I come here because my male nature tells me I need this and it feels good and no one gets hurt by it.”



“No one, huh? Don’t you have any concern about these women and AIDS.”



“Glad you brought that up. I used to teach a training coordinator for HIV/AIDS in Thailand and these girls are amongst the best informed about STDs. For my part, after I sleep with a girl if she is new I tell her about safe sex, make her promise to do it every time, save her money, don’t get tattooed, or use any of the other cultural corruptions to Thai beauty, such as silicon, don’t smoke, don’t go with anyone you are not happy with, and to have pride in themselves as people, not to look down on themselves."



"Anyway, tell me why Christianity is totally consumed with sex as the only morality. You come from a country with a right wing Christian President who has made war against innocent people. The Bible warns against avarice and greed more than fornication, yet you never preach to your parishioners about greed. Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins and obesity has climbed to health endangering levels amongst Westerners and yet here you are preaching against old men like me who cannot otherwise express their God given nature. What has Christianity become?”



“You know, we have to go now. We’d love to stay and talk some more, but remember this quote, “A man has no greater gift than to lay down his life and desires for his friend.”



“Wait a second there, don’t go adding in other words to that quote, like desires. That isn’t in there. And what the hell does it have to do with anything. Just tell me whether or not man’s nature is natural.”



“Sorry, we have to go now, nice talking to you.”



“You back here tomorrow, same time? We could meet up. There are lots of things I could help you with. I could show you around if you like.”



“We really have to go. Would you like to read what is in this pamphlet?” It was a black and red thing with a question mark on it. “Sorry, but there is not a thing in that pamphlet that I don’t already know and don’t believe.”



And so it ended. I was so revved up I had to go to R 4 and sink a couple more beers just to calm me before I took the lovely Fa home from Erotica. In the sin of pride, I hope they talked about me the next day at Church. “Last night, just as you said, we met Satan.”

 

[GRACE Q]

should sleep soundly tonight, my pains are eased.

 

[vance1167]

Well done.........what gives these brainwashed idiots a right to push their beliefs on anyone.

 

[IRev. Albert Einstein]

It will be interesting to see how much mongering goes on in Sydney next week with a couple of hundred thousand young Christians here to see the Pope for World Youth Day.

Can't wait for Durex to announce an increase in condom sales for the week. I think the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence will be handing them out.

 

[athomasmueller]

i am a Roman Catholic but not entirely happy with the church or this pope at the moment

but i will say i was in NYC when he was in town a few months ago and it was pretty damn impressive, the turnout

 

[Left-T]

555, nice story. Would have been great to see the look on their bible bashing faces (if it really went down like that).

 

[B Vijay Chandran]

nicely handled and you were drunk at the time ... hate to see how you would have done sober 555555555

 

[Pompal 09.]

Would have loved to have been standing next to you when you were talking with these people.
For a lot of them......it's a one way street.......and unless you see things their way....you are wrong.
Thank goodness for those of us with open and analytical minds.

 

[letterstoheather]

Handled very nicely... h:

 

[Pompal 09.]

wasnt me guys, cut n paste from stickman site.

 

[Abdiel]

I wonder where he comes from? .....:whistle:

 

[brainlady]

:intello: Yup..nice reading..thx for sharing those "blessed and true words". Amen!

 

[sky.lilah]

If you accept the popular "Western" view, anyone trying to buy P4P is exploiting the other person. That's why so many people are arrested in the USA for buying/selling sex. In other parts of the world, things are seen differently.

The problem with most "do-gooders" is that they try to fix the immediate situation without in any way fixing the cause of the situation. As was pointed out in the original article:

“Well, that may be the case for the women who work here but they could get jobs in factories out in Samut Prakan. They come here because it pays better. I mean, they aren’t doing this to stave off starvation. They can make more money than a bank manager here and, if the truth be told, they lose a lot of their money gambling, giving it to friends and boyfriends, and so on.”


I wonder what the situation would be like, if most women in Thailand could make as much (or more) from a "regular job" as they can from prostitution?


The article has great responses to the questions being asked, but as was pointed out here so strongly not too long ago, "most" women involved in prostitution in Thailand don't get the relatively large amounts of money that are talked about in the tourist places. Someone brought up the brothels in Phuket Town where the Thai people go to buy sex.


The problem I have with most of these "do-gooders" is that they don't really fix anything; all they do is change the immediate situation. For an example, in another country I visited, they are working very hard to eliminate child labor. They want kids to be in school, not working. So, these "rescue workers" look for children at work, take them away to a home where they'll be given schooling. When you read the stories, the full story often will then go on to say how in many cases, the children who were working, were the sole source of income of their family. The family then needs to deal with no more money for food. By "solving" one problem, an even bigger problem is created. The real answer would be to find a solution so children don't need to work in the first place to support their family. I guess the word for this in the USA is "welfare", which some people agree with, and others are opposed to.


Until when/if Thailand ever decides to change, things will remain mostly the same (IMHO). There are huge profits to be made off the tourist industry, and anyone trying to make any kind of change at all is likely to meet a lot of opposition.

Anyway, regarding the article being quoted up above, both sides of the discussion are correct, based on the point of view of the person. The religious side "sounds" convincing, but more people have been killed in this world in the name of religion than for almost any other cause.

 

[mister ed]

If you want to be a christian, muslim, vegetarian, whatever thats up to you. Though I think its a self delusion I do concede that it can give particpants a sense of purpose, place in the universe, meaning etc.
Its when people get `fundamental` and try to force their smug superiority on others that the problems start.
The NGO`s have blinkered feministic black and white thinking of the evil farang mongerer vs the naive impoverished thai woman (perp v victim - incidentally denying the thai womans ability the make choices and infantalising her as a victim).
The truth is much more complex, witness countless farang men who have lost hundreds of thousands of £ to scheming thai girls who have cynically abused them.

 

[cheshirekat260]

That's why I worship at the Church of the Butterfly:rules:

 

[bryanhughjr]

That's as true today as it was centuries ago. The crusades, the Boston witch trials... and now the Taliban and others. When the religious people get the power to allow them to force their will on others, there's no limit to how far they'll go. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's true in so many ways.

Without that power, they're just another "point of view", but much of the world pretty much goes along.

That's not to say that all religious fanatics are nutcases, as they've got as much right to believe as they do, as others. In countries like the USA though, they get laws passed to try to force things to be the way they think they ought to be.

Of course, making something illegal just results in the price going way up. As an example, marijuana would be free if it weren't for the laws against it. It's a weed, and grows almost anywhere.

As to whether or not people selling P4P are being exploited, there will never be a single answer. Those being forced to do so against their will (or because of needing the money) probably are, but how about those who do it "as a business"?

(The answer probably depends more on the point of view of the observer, than on the point of view of the "victim".)